[00:00:00] Bobby Steinbach:
Andrew had a whole diatribe about Mein Kampf last time we had this question.
[00:00:05] Cut Scene Between Guests:
Y es. No. Yeah. No, yes, no.
[00:00:05] Bobby Steinbach:
This sucks.
[00:00:11] Narrator:
Welcome to hell, devil's advocate, Pitt's lawyer against lawyer in a battle royale to answer the age old question. Who's better at arguing?
The rules of the game are we spin the wheel of misfortune to decide on a topic. Once a topic has been selected, the advocates must answer a
set of polarizing questions.
[00:00:31] Narrator:
When they disagree, the game begins. Each advocate must argue their side, but here's the devilish twist. They must argue for the side they
did not select. Let that depravity commence.
[00:00:50] Bobby Steinbach:
All right, everybody, and welcome to Devil's Advocate. Today we have on a lawyer versus a non-lawyer. We've got on Chris dryer of rankings
against Bob Simon of a bunch of stuff. I mean, Bob, you probably give better intro than I do, but you have a, I feel like I see you everywhere
doing everything but justice team and doing like stuff with attorney chair and probably a bunch of other things I don't know about
[00:01:14] Chris Dreyer:
Ladi Gras,
[00:01:15] Bobby Steinbach:
Ladi Gras, all of the above.
[00:01:18] Bob Simon:
We do a weird shit now.
[00:01:20] Bobby Steinbach:
What did you say? Video games?
[00:01:21] Bob Simon:
Yeah.
[00:01:22] Bobby Steinbach:
Oh, I didn't know that.
[00:01:23] Andrew Nasrinpay:
Wait, what? What are you doing with video games?
[00:01:25] Bob Simon:
So we have a company that's essentially digitizing Dungeons and Dragons, but it's its own separate game, but it takes all
the BS out of creating the, the, the role playing.
[00:01:33] Bob Simon:
That's it. You didn't know that yet?
[00:01:35] Bobby Steinbach:
I did not know that. No. It'd be awesome. Yeah, it's extremely like, how would I know that Legal specific and out there, but.
I feel like first off, the best kind.
[00:01:46] Andrew:
Yeah,
[00:01:49] Bobby Steinbach:
let's spin the wheel. Get ready for some, let's eat ridiculous questions. Yeah. Okay. Let's eat random. Okay. Other legal sex
work should be legal. No.
[00:01:59] Chris Dreyer:
No.
[00:02:00] Bobby Steinbach: Should marijuana be legalized nationwide? Yes. Yes. Is the death penalty an effective deterrent
against serious crimes?
[00:02:06] Bob Simon:
Nope.
[00:02:08] Chris Dreyer:
No, I didn't wanna argue that one.
[00:02:12] Chris Dreyer:
Why?
[00:02:13] Bobby Steinbach:
Should AI be allowed to make legal decisions?
[00:02:16] Chris Dreyer:
Yes.
[00:02:17] Bobby Steinbach:
Yes. Our current intellectual property law is too restrictive. Or not restrictive enough.
[00:02:23] Chris Dreyer:
Too restrictive Should, we're gonna grant all these too restrictive.
[00:02:27] Bobby Steinbach:
This sucks.
[00:02:28] Bobby Steinbach:
Okay, we're going to the next one. We're spinning the wheel again. Yeah. I actually can't that the first episode, they agree on everything.
[00:02:37] Bobby Steinbach:
Oh, let's eat business. That's a good one. AI can handle the entire pre-lit process for simple personal
injury matters. Agree.
[00:02:44] Chris Dreyer:
Agree.
[00:02:45] Bobby Steinbach:
That would be a tough one to argue, I think.
[00:02:47] Chris Dreyer:
Yeah.
[00:02:47] Bobby Steinbach:
Personal injury Mastermind or bourbon approved. Oh, I made Bourbon of Proof. I mean, personal Entry Mastermind. Okay. So now you have to
argue for the other person.
[00:03:00] Chris Dreyer:
So yeah, you go on Bourbon of Proof, you get a glass of bourbon. You don't get that at pim. Pimm's Boring. You have fun conversations while
you're a little, little lit. It's also stuffy talking about people's egos and how much money they make. It's, uh, you know, it's, it's a light
conversation where we have a lot of fun.
[00:03:16] Bob Simon:
Yeah. And with Personal Injury Mastermind, you're pulling the nation's. Best talent nationwide from from marketing to being a lawyer. So you
get more of the spectrum than bourbon of Proof does. Also, the hosts of Bourbon of Proof, you can tell how many they filmed that day 'cause
they're so drunk, they're slurring their words at the end, and nobody wants that kind of content.
[00:03:34] Bob Simon:
And with the Master Behind Personal Injury Mastermind being Chris Drer, he gets that content everywhere in front of
everyone using his SEO Flick. We still going, you can go or you could be done. I'm good. I'm good.
[00:03:47] Bobby Steinbach:
We'll keep going. Um, next one. Reading business books is a great way to learn business strategies.
[00:03:52] Chris Dreyer:
Yes.
[00:03:53] Bobby Steinbach:
No. Oh, nice.
[00:04:00] Chris Dreyer:
So you don't learn through books. You, you learn through experience. You gotta do the hard things. Most of the people that write books
haven't even built a business. Themselves are at least a big business pass. You, Bob.
[00:04:10] Bob Simon:
I mean, I think books written by the authors that write the books are some of the most successful business persons ever and why not
digest their mind?
[00:04:17] Bob Simon:
And they're usually getting vetted by publishers to make sure that book's gonna sell. So they're making gonna make sure that content
is there and it sticks. Uh, and I think, you know, with the advancement of artificial intelligence, you can download all these books into
A PDF and then have one master think tank of how the best in the business do everything.
[00:04:32] Bob Simon:
So that's why I'm a huge believer in, uh. Business self-help books.
[00:04:36] Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, so that's kind of my point, right? They're in it to make money on these business books. So a lot of times it's
motivational, David Goggin style, hitting that big tam, maybe not the technical details to really move the needle. And they really go into
the granular.
[00:04:51] Chris Dreyer:
Uh, most of 'em are just high level motivation, mental values and things like that to move the needle.
[00:04:56] Bob Simon:
Well, I mean, the, the issue is like a lot of these folks that write the books usually have a coaching class with a very
small paywall to get into their little masterminds and be able to be in this giant think tank.
[00:05:06] Bob Simon:
And I'll start to the entry point of, you know, reading their, their self-help book.
[00:05:12] Bobby Steinbach:
See, I think I confused by it. Next topic.
[00:05:20] Bobby Steinbach:
Okay, we'll do some random, you can still listen to Kanye's music despite how you feel about him as a person. Yes.
[00:05:25] Chris Dreyer:
Yeah,
[00:05:26] Bobby Steinbach:
McDonald's is the best. I do want to note that Andrew had a whole diatribe about mind, comf last, how we had this
question. So just throwing it out there. No, I I was arguing the same thing that they were, that you could definitely listen to it.
[00:05:38] Bobby Steinbach:
Well, you've wanted to be part of high school curriculum. Uh, okay. McDonald's is the best fast food.
[00:05:43] Bob Simon:
No. Yeah,
[00:05:48] Bob Simon:
I mean, McDonald's is classic. When you see the golden arches, you know you're gonna get value with their value meal.
And if you've ever had McDonald's abroad, I mean, it is far better than some of the steakhouses we have here in the United States. The things
I like about McDonald's is with their.
[00:06:01] Bob Simon:
Franchise model. They really allow the franchisee to excel and do different types of things, and that's why it's the
best. I mean, there's no better product than having a 69 cent french fries. I mean, are you kidding me? They also have the best coffee better
than Starbucks that they serve. And don't even get me started with their little burritos that they get the breakfast burritos.
[00:06:20] Bob Simon:
I mean, that is like true heaven, by the way, I do truly believe that their sausage egg McMuffin cures any hangover.
Oh, that's a good point though.
[00:06:27] Chris Dreyer:
McDonald's mean half the time you go there, you go there for an ice cream. It doesn't work. Right. You, you, you can't
order the ice cream the next day. You feel terrible after eating it.
[00:06:35] Chris Dreyer:
Wasn't there a guy that ate it for like 30 days straight? And I think he recently passed away, right? So, so not healthy
compared to like Chick-fil-A, you know, some of these other Taco Bell. Uh, I think it's just old school. Maybe the first, first one in maybe not
necessarily the best or maybe they got a little extra.
[00:06:53] Chris Dreyer:
Sugar or something in that, uh, that sandwich to, to hook you.
[00:06:56] Bobby Steinbach:
You got like a big point for, uh, Chick-fil-A there. Chris Chick-fil-A is delicious. It's still split. Oh, you landed
on the other side. Yeah, we had against Chick-fil-A. Nothing but McDonald's is the king. I do tend to agree, but Chick-fil-A's delicious.
[00:07:10] Bobby Steinbach:
Okay. Society. Lawyer advertising is good for clients, the industry and society as a whole. Yes.
[00:07:22] Chris Dreyer:
Yeah, attorney. A advertising is, is definitely not good for the consumer. A lot of times the people, uh, it's backed by
pe the, uh, the messaging is false. Uh, it doesn't really paint the true picture of who the best attorney in the market is and who the top litigators
are because. Typically the litigators aren't the ones advertising 'cause they don't have to advertise.
[00:07:43] Chris Dreyer:
They're getting referrals from the big spenders, the people that are just trying to dump money into the market. Yeah, it's, it's
not good for the consumers 'cause they're not getting the best care, the best, uh, lawyer to represent their case.
[00:07:54] Bob Simon:
What good is it to be a great lawyer if nobody knows who you are?
[00:07:57] Bob Simon:
You know, and consumers are now savvy, they can research anybody that's advertising and you know, you have to put your best foot
forward. And now lawyers are so hyper specialized that if there's a catastrophic event or somebody that was injured, they can actually be in front of
them right away to help them faster, sooner, and better.
[00:08:12] Bob Simon:
And a lot of these firms that advertise have. You know, honestly, they've had more success. They've had bigger budgets. They can
go in and they have better systems and better serve people. They're built on bigger data, so they have a better, they're in better position to help people
on a massive scale,
[00:08:26] Bobby Steinbach:
but they refer out the big stuff.
[00:08:27] Bobby Steinbach:
Anyway, Arizona ABS exception is a good thing for the legal industry. I. Yes, yes. Arizona is the first of many states to
embrace the AB structure over the next few years. Yes. Wait, Arizona? Yeah. Well, they already have, and so Yes. Is the first of many. There's gonna be
many more. Oh, yes. Oh, okay. Okay. Firms differentiating by undercutting traditional fee structures is a good thing for clients in the industry.
[00:08:52] Bobby Steinbach:
No.
[00:08:53] Bob Simon:
No.
[00:08:54] Bobby Steinbach:
Oh, I kind of wish you took, I want to hear that one. Okay. I'll say
[00:08:58] Bob Simon:
yes. You want me to argue that?
[00:08:59] Bobby Steinbach:
Yeah, you gotta argue it.
[00:09:05] Bob Simon:
So the reason why I think it's good to have folks charge less is I think it gives better access to justice and if we allow
consumers to find their attorneys only based on their results and the metrics. Of how good they are at dissolving those cases, rather than the lawyer
who pays the most for the first ad on Google lets them compete.
[00:09:23] Bob Simon:
And if they can compete by lowering their fees and that's their entry point, then the consumer finds a better, more specialized
lawyer without paying the premium of the absorbed overhead costs of the billboard lawyer that's dumping $20 million in a year. Uh, there and to be the
number one spot on Google.
[00:09:38] Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. Seth Gil's got a quote. The problem with the rates at the bottom is you just might win. You keep lowering your fees.
You can't truly provide value to the consumer. You hired, you know, the best expert witnesses and the, and then work up a case to the, to its true value
and. And when you can't get value, you can't get profit.
[00:09:56] Chris Dreyer:
You, you can't hire the best attorneys. You, you don't have the best technology. So it ends up being a disservice to the consumer
that they may not know. But at the end of the day, you know, you, you do need to generate profit. And, and a lot of times differentiation should come
from other outlets and how you stand out, how you're distinctive.
[00:10:13] Chris Dreyer:
And it shouldn't be a, a price oriented thing 'cause. When you undercover by prices, it lends itself to productization and not
customization. Which customization is client first versus customer centric.
[00:10:24] Bobby Steinbach:
Any other points to make?
[00:10:26] Bob Simon:
Yeah, I mean, I just think this is the problem that if you allow people that have the, the biggest pocketbook to be able to dictate
what fees are charged and then all of a sudden they're answering to private equity now that they're having margins of 20% that they gotta meet and
treating clients like commodities.
[00:10:41] Bob Simon:
I think this is where we run into a problem and people that. Are spending the most money, are usually doing that kind of setup in
one way or another. And then you become the, you're on the treadmill constantly. And I think if you can compete by charging less of a fee and keep your
overhead low, I mean more power to you.
[00:10:55] Bob Simon:
And you're probably a better solution for that client because you're better served to help them.
[00:11:00] Chris Dreyer:
You know, at the end of the day when you go into, go into a shop and you see two cameras and one's priced at, uh, 20 bucks and a
hundred, another one's priced at a hundred. You know, typically the, the one that's priced at a hundred has more features, has more things that they can
do, and the same comes to lawyers and, and the best talent retaining talent.
[00:11:19] Chris Dreyer:
They're, they're better trial attorneys, uh, because they do provide more value to the consumer and, and, and that's why they're
there. So, um, you know, comes back to value and, and profit is a component of that.
[00:11:31] Bobby Steinbach:
Andrew, you're going back on the f. That was, that was some great points. You guys made great points.
[00:11:37] Bobby Steinbach:
Okay, we're gonna move into our last little segment. It's a meta game. It's a game inside the game, actually. That's not a
meta game. Meta would be about the game. Huh? It's a game. We're gonna play a game. Um. Okay. The name of the game,
[00:11:57] Bobby Steinbach:
I'm gonna give you a word. It is a completely fictional word. This word does not exist. I want you to define it. You don't
have to argue. This isn't an arguing game. You're both just gonna gimme a definition for what you think this word means. And the word is glimmer.
[00:12:13] Bob Simon:
Glimmer is one of the phases of tantric sex, where once, once you reach this level, you get a level of agler where you actually
are able to like levitate and float a little bit.
[00:12:25] Bob Simon:
Um, and that's, you know, it's probably after the 23rd hour of tantric sex where you can get to that level. And, you know, it's,
it's a feeling that you can only achieve if you are like a. 25th level black ma dunes and dragons to be able to put, so that's, that's the ggl it Gli
glimmer. Glibber.
[00:12:44] Chris Dreyer:
Yeah. I'm gonna abstain and just roll it that way.
[00:12:49] Bobby Steinbach:
Well, no, that is correct. You both got the right definition for the word glimmer is hand is a level of tantric sex.
That's right. Uh, sorry. A face that you make when you reach a level of tantric sex. My mistake. Okay, well great game guys. I think, uh, at the
end, Andrew and I both landed on the fence, even though Andrew was too lazy to move his over.
[00:13:09] Bobby Steinbach:
I got him as always, like, enjoy your verdine day this upcoming week. Make sure you understand who you're getting back.
Obviously that's a really important part and, um. You know, just keep that glimmer on your face. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. Bye bye. Thanks for tuning
into this episode. What of Devil's advocate, who do you think the winner was?
[00:13:31] Bobby Steinbach:
Make sure to leave a comment to let us know. DM us for any ghoulish topics you think we should dare to debate.
We'll catch you in the next one.
